| Cursing and drawing the line | |
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Mookie - ex-Student  |
I no longer play on the servers, but I still sometimes frequent the chat and the forums. I don't want to be controversial on purpose, but I've lately had several conversations with our members on cursing in the Academy, on both sides of the argument. Obviously, the first rule on cursing in our Academy is 'don't'. The Jedi Knight games can be sold to anyone who is twelve years old, or older. The f-word has no place here, really, and I agree. But some recent developments (and I've been with the Academy long enough to know that these developments are indeed 'recent' and not a policy that has been active throughout my 1.5 year stay at the Academy) have caused me to write this post because I'm curious how you all feel about the question I'm going to pose you. Maybe a little information about myself is handy for you guys. I'm twenty years old, and I'm officially studying the English language. I'm no linguist like Casual, but in International Communication you obviously deal with the language enough to develop some sensibilities regarding its usage. I realize that a lot of young people visit these forums, our servers and our chat, and that we should keep them in mind when conversing. However, a few people (including myself) have become concerned about the JA's policy because it also extends to words like 'shit' and 'damn', and people have even been reprimanded for using 'bastard' and 'crap'. So where do you draw the line? As four-letter words become an ever more popular form of communication, it's hardly surprising that athletes might use them, or that one might slip out in a TV interview. NBC's Matt Yocum had just asked Dale Earnhardt Jr. how it felt to win a race at the Talladega Superspeedway for the fifth time, and he replied modestly that his famous dad, Dale Earnhardt Sr, had won there ten times. "It don't mean s---," he said. The sky fell in. Earnhardt was fined $10,000 and docked points, knocking him out of first place in the Nextel Cup series. But what's interesting is Earnhardt's defense of his naughty word. "It was in jubilation," he said. "When you're happy and joyous about something and it happens, it's different than being angry and cursing in anger. Of course, we don't want to promote that. But if a guy's in Victory Lane, jumping up and down, and lets a 's---' slip out, I don't think that's something we need to go hammering down on." Is he right? Does it make a difference whether the word is used in anger or exuberance? Does it matter whether it's literal or figurative? Is there a distinction among different types: obscenity, profanity, cursing, and blasphemy? When forbidding words such as 'bastard' or 'crap', are we becoming insensitive to the context of a situation? Do we realize people are becoming very self conscious in an environment where we are supposed to be relaxing? I'm not supporting the use of insults in our Academy, but I'm pointing a finger at our censors for becoming sloppy and insensitive to the use of our language. We have many members from many different backgrounds here, and I'm sure there are a lot of opinions on this subject. However, I for one wouldn't be at ease if I had to worry about using the word 'crap' in a room and getting a reprimand for it. Would you? -Ken This post was edited by Mookie on Apr 09 2005 11:48pm. |
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| Comments |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Quote: I think its much more fair to just outlaw all cuss words. .. which calls for a list, a list the JACs don't wanna make. |
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Furi0us - Student 
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You're right, Ranja. Saying "Screw you!" to someone is just as bad, but not for the same reasons. It would be violating the 'No disrespect' rule, whereas saying "F*** you!" would be violating both the 'No disrespect' rule and the 'No cursing' rule.  _______________ You are not your f***ing system specs. You are not your uptime stats, your script file, or your oversized desktop screencap. You are not your broadband connection. You are not your f***ing post count. This comment was edited by Furi0us on Apr 14 2005 12:46pm. |
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Rainer - Student |
I haven't read the other replies, so sorry if I say somethng that was already said. Personally I think that intent is what truly matters. Saying "Screw you!" is no better than saying "F*** you!" in my book. However, there is no sure way to decide what is said with a good intent, and what is said with a bad intent. This leaves that decision up to the Knights, which means that rules may not be consistent. I think its much more fair to just outlaw all cuss words. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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SaZ - Student 
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you forgot ***** . _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Well the rules explicitly state the cursing rule and the respect rule as two separate things. So I think it's a valid question. Like I said before, it's possible to engage in gutter-talk without using a "forbidden" word, and it's still gutter-talk and diminishes the person doing it. I enforce the cursing rule, but IMO it's not nearly as important as the respect rule. And there are grey areas, words that can either be or not be a curse depending on context. I seem to recall an incident involving the city of Phuket. Some things are disrespectful simply because they are intended to be so. A list? Sounds a bit overboard, but my I humbly suggest that a list already exists: George Carlin's "seven dirty words" routine. This has the beauty of being part of our pop culture already, and nobody has to agonize over what to include in it. It's prepackaged for us. We could say there's the cursing rule in a nutshell, and gutter-talk outside of that may break the respect rule, but we're not going to argue about whether "crap" is a curse word. For those who don't recall, the Seven Dirty Words are: **** **** **** **** ******* ********** ************  _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Aron - Retired 
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Rhis discussion is going in a totally useless direction. All you guys are doing now is make a list ANYWAY, by asking 'so... what's the deal on THIS word?'. In my opinion, it's about the amount of times it is used, the people it is directed to, and the context. It's not about 'crap' scoring 5 points and the badwords list, and 'shit' 7. I can be easily offended by something not even containing swear words; simply a sarcastic, disrespectful tone (and yes, you CAN have that in text chat) can be enough to get me on my toes. This comment was edited by Aron on Apr 13 2005 06:35pm. |
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Jo_Mintaka - Student 
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ok,i guess im an example. i am 12. this IS the reason that i joined the academy. language when i got JK3 i thought it was so awesome,and wanted to play online,so i gave it a try. and of course the first thing i heard was the f-word. so that just made me want to find a server with no cursing. i can tell you 1 thing,ITS VERY HARD. so i searched the net for clubs loooking for places like the academy. and ,of course,came to find the academy. i read the rules,and thought,this place is totally awesome! and then i read the forms a little, i stil saw signs of cursing,but i knew it was reduced a little from public servers. then i got on the servers and saw more signs. so ,yeah im concerened too! _______________ Joined Jan 27 2005 [Owner of Pink Floyd's 525th, 1100th and 4002nd comments! Darth Mike's accidental 999 and 1001 comments! addiat's 1975 comment! This comment was edited by Jo_Mintaka on Apr 13 2005 04:07pm. |
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solitude - Jedi Council 
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whats the take on the word 'crap'?, it can have exactly the same meaning and connotations as s***. however some people consider it offensive and others not. Quote: On the other hand, we should also say that there is no place for "oversensitive" people (don't take that as a harsh comment). This is the internet. Wether you LIKE IT OR NOT, you (yes, YOU) have seen words and images FAR worse than "shit" and "crap". If hearing that word makes you sad, you should consider unplugging your network cable. Swearing is bad, but we are still on the internet here. We can't (read: should not) police around the servers, scanning for so-called "bad words". when aron says that there is no place for oversentitive people, and that we should no police servers for bad words; while we shouldnt go out of our way to offend people, is it necessary for us to cater to the oversensitivity of a few individuals? _______________ Joined 16 October 2004 | Retired 10 April 2005 | Returned 05 June 2008 | Made Staff 27 June 2008 | Made Council 18 January 2009 Padawan To Odan-Wei Belouve | Adopted into the Belouve family | Twin to xAnAtOs | Owner of the 4th Quesi sexy badge  Brother To Roan Belouve, Nomad, Majno, Silkmonkey, Kensei and Jarhok Belouve
Owner Of Virtue's 1000th profile comment, Mr. Doobie's 1000th profile comment, Gradius' 2500th comment, xAnAtOs' 2500th comment, Rosered's 1500th comment, Laziana's 900th comment, Scythus' 500th comment and Echuu's 100th comment |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Well Virtue, what's your take on "bastard?" IMO, it's one of those grey areas. Used disrespectfully, it is, well, disrespectful. But speaking of the bastard son of King Blahblahblah, it's just a word. I do not argue that swearing is acceptable or unaceptable depending on context, merely that whether or not some words are swearing at all can depend on context. My mom once told me that she grew up hearing the word "tit" on a regular basis--her family was in the dairy business, and that was just the technical term for it. Only when she was older did she discover that it's a really rude word to use in any other context. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Virtue - Jedi Council 
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Just a quick note; The rule isn't "No cursing in the JA - unless you're having fun with a friend". It's not the context in which you use 'swear' words that are offensive to people, it's the words themselvs. Alot of different people react differently to swear words - in England "damn" isn't an awful thing to say, but in America, it can be. And vice versa with the word "bloody". What would seem like a harmless word to you might deeply offend someone else, even if you didn't direct the word at them. The only way we could ensure that people get offended as little as possible is to say 'No' to all of the words that can be considered 'Swearing'. This is the JAC's outlook on this. The rest should just be common sense, don't do stupid stuff, remember? Once again, the context in which you use these words is irrelivent, the words will still offend people. I am sorry to those of you who want to be able to curse, but the rule will not change, not even slightly. If you are seen to be cursing on the Servers, IRC or the Forums, you will recieve warnings and/or kicks. Don't think that we don't know what goes on at the other end of the spectrum, too. We know that one or two JAK+ have been a little 'Hyper-Sensitive' and have kicked people for saying really tame things, don't worry, this will be dealt with. But only if you use common sense - the JAK+ expect people to whine when they are kicked, because 95% of the time, that is what happens. So if you're going to complain about being kicked, please, please, please make sure it's a legitemate and justified complaint. Gradius put it quite well: "We're not going to change the rules just because some of you want them to be changed". Please think about this.  - Virtue.  _______________ Academy Architect |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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JavaGuy gets my point about context, I think. Yeah, you wouldn't want to call someone a bastard because you're out to insult him, but I've seen people getting a reprimand in a situation where one friend lovingly rollstabbed another and the victim said 'lol, bastard'. That's just two people having fun, and you need to respect that, in my opinion. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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"Bastard" became a pejorative in the days when it was really scandalous to be born out of wedlock. In stories the bastard was the guy with no legitimate claim to an inheritence who was a sore loser and often, as a result, a villain. We've forgotten this in an age of paternity lawsuits and child support, but bastard children have been villified throughout much of human history. And remember, there are people who literally are bastards, and while some of them may not care, others probably don't like hearing their familial status used as an insult. So that's why it's offensive to many. I personally don't find it that offensive, but I certainly wouldn't let my kids say it. But again: What's more important is respect. If a student insults someone, that's a problem whether he uses a "bad" word to do it or not. As long as I don't see the f-bomb or any other overt cursing on the server, I'm pretty lenient as long as people are respectful of one another. [edited for sentence structure] _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. This comment was edited by JavaGuy on Apr 12 2005 03:39pm. |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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Quote: I still don't understand why people find bastard offensive, though.. 1. A child born out of wedlock. 2. Something that is of irregular, inferior, or dubious origin. 3. Slang. A person, especially one who is held to be mean or disagreeable. - dictionary.com #2 definition might be semi-understandable, but it's still far from being anything insulting, as I see it. To some it most certainly is. And I would not be happy about being called it. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
I still don't understand why people find bastard offensive, though.. 1. A child born out of wedlock. 2. Something that is of irregular, inferior, or dubious origin. 3. Slang. A person, especially one who is held to be mean or disagreeable. - dictionary.com #2 definition might be semi-understandable, but it's still far from being anything insulting, as I see it. |
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JavaGuy - Student
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The JAK are not like the police. We're like the bouncers. Or like ushers. We're here to have a good time, but it's also our job to show people around, help people with whatever and, yes, sometimes tell a noisy guest to calm down and--if necessary--show him the door. Now... S**t: I don't want to hear it on the servers. Same with the f-bomb. Bastard: If you use it to mean what it really means, okay. Dog breeders say "bitch" in polite company when they are literally talking about their bitches. If you use it as a pejorative, it had better be in an obviously joking manner--otherwise you've violated the Respect Rule, which is far worse than violating the cursing rule. Damn: Anybody know why this is a "curse" word? It was actually the law, in England if memory serves. Some people would pray for their enemies to be damned to hell, and such prayers were thought to carry terrible power--a curse, literally. So such prayers were outlawed. Soon lots of words that we're not supposed to say became known as "cursing" even though many of them aren't really curses in the literal sense. Use of "damn" is not going away on the servers any time soon, but keep in mind a few things. Firstly, if prefaced by "God-" it really is an awful thing to say. The JA has people of many religions and plenty who reject religion or are skeptical of it, so we kinda need to respect religious sensibilities, and G.D. really crosses the line. But remember that people who just say "damn" as an expression of frustration or amazement do not mean it in the literal sense. It's more like a verbal exclamation mark, and as long as it's used like that I see nothing wrong with it. And again, it's not going away. Crap: This is certainly not a curse worse as far as I'm concerned. For a fascinating treasise on it, look up John Crapper on snopes.com. More importantly, above and beyond the no-cursing rule, gutter-talk diminishes the person doing it. It's not a question of using or not using particular words--as I pointed out, "bitch" and "bastard" can be bad words or perfectly acceptable words depending on the context in which they are used. And one can engage in gutter-talk without using even a single "bad" word. It isn't so much words that are offensive: It's what you say with them. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Furi0us - Student
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Gradius for Academy-kick-people-when-they're-drunk-on-irc guy! <3 Grad. _______________ You are not your f***ing system specs. You are not your uptime stats, your script file, or your oversized desktop screencap. You are not your broadband connection. You are not your f***ing post count. |
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Aron - Retired 
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I prefer to see this place as a democracy with five people able to overrule anything they don't like |
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 - Student |
Gradius for JA Plumber! |
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Tallepyon - Student 
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Gradius for JAC! |
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Gradius - Ex-Student 
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Quote: Different JAK+ have different standards of what they concider "Bad language" and the council is looking into this. Right? I'd doubt it. It doesn't matter what standards we try to put in place, we will do things by our own standards when it comes to swearing. Look guys, this shouldn't be this big of a deal, honestly. Just don't use foul language. It's not that hard. I've been doing it for a year with no slip ups, you can do it too. No, we're not going to change things just because the lot of you want them to be changed. This is a dictatorship, not a democracy, remember? _______________ - Proud padawan of Kueller. - We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything - <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words! - "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider |
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 - Student |
You have to keep in mind that it's quite literally a case of when someone passes an exam and trial, they get given some extra forum access, an admin password, a pat on the back, and are told to have fun. Not to piss anyone off, but at the end of the day, this is an amateur organisation. It's non-profit, there's no qualifications, there's no formal administration training, or any of that crap. Sometimes I think people expect too much from the JAK+... but then again, I think the JAK+ expect too much from themselves, and eachother. |
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3th - Retired 
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Quote: You know what? Swearing is bad! That's why it's fun! What bothers me is the standards of punishment. One dude might be like, "Dude, don't say that again!" while another might be like, "OMG BANT!11". It's silly. the JAK are pretty much like your local police force. what's the law? the speed limit is 30mph (kph, whatever you like )if you go over it you know you CAN be written up. chances are you won't get a ticked for doing 35, but what if there's a cop that's had a bad day? he might give you a ticket for doing 31. so yeah, that pretty much sums it up, not everyone is gonna enforce things the same, ever. because we're all human and not robots. how else are we like your local cops? the JAK also love doughnuts and are quite corrupt. _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! |
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Squibit - Student 
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Summary: Swearing = bad, Swearing only very rarly = not so bad Swearing not targeted at a person = not so bad. Different JAK+ have different standards of what they concider "Bad language" and the council is looking into this. Right? _______________ Quote: fiZZe: its SIR Fizzy Fluffy :p Quote: FiZZ[JAK]: that was what I call a counter Ah, things you only ever expect to hear once
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SaZ - Student
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i TRY not to swear but when someone is expert at annoying ppl... hrrrr i cant do anything about it. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
The fact they cuss in every sentence doesn't mean they can't communicate well, though. They may just be used to it. I know plenty of people with communication skills and intellect that STILL swear. |
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