| Cursing and drawing the line | |
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Mookie - ex-Student  |
I no longer play on the servers, but I still sometimes frequent the chat and the forums. I don't want to be controversial on purpose, but I've lately had several conversations with our members on cursing in the Academy, on both sides of the argument. Obviously, the first rule on cursing in our Academy is 'don't'. The Jedi Knight games can be sold to anyone who is twelve years old, or older. The f-word has no place here, really, and I agree. But some recent developments (and I've been with the Academy long enough to know that these developments are indeed 'recent' and not a policy that has been active throughout my 1.5 year stay at the Academy) have caused me to write this post because I'm curious how you all feel about the question I'm going to pose you. Maybe a little information about myself is handy for you guys. I'm twenty years old, and I'm officially studying the English language. I'm no linguist like Casual, but in International Communication you obviously deal with the language enough to develop some sensibilities regarding its usage. I realize that a lot of young people visit these forums, our servers and our chat, and that we should keep them in mind when conversing. However, a few people (including myself) have become concerned about the JA's policy because it also extends to words like 'shit' and 'damn', and people have even been reprimanded for using 'bastard' and 'crap'. So where do you draw the line? As four-letter words become an ever more popular form of communication, it's hardly surprising that athletes might use them, or that one might slip out in a TV interview. NBC's Matt Yocum had just asked Dale Earnhardt Jr. how it felt to win a race at the Talladega Superspeedway for the fifth time, and he replied modestly that his famous dad, Dale Earnhardt Sr, had won there ten times. "It don't mean s---," he said. The sky fell in. Earnhardt was fined $10,000 and docked points, knocking him out of first place in the Nextel Cup series. But what's interesting is Earnhardt's defense of his naughty word. "It was in jubilation," he said. "When you're happy and joyous about something and it happens, it's different than being angry and cursing in anger. Of course, we don't want to promote that. But if a guy's in Victory Lane, jumping up and down, and lets a 's---' slip out, I don't think that's something we need to go hammering down on." Is he right? Does it make a difference whether the word is used in anger or exuberance? Does it matter whether it's literal or figurative? Is there a distinction among different types: obscenity, profanity, cursing, and blasphemy? When forbidding words such as 'bastard' or 'crap', are we becoming insensitive to the context of a situation? Do we realize people are becoming very self conscious in an environment where we are supposed to be relaxing? I'm not supporting the use of insults in our Academy, but I'm pointing a finger at our censors for becoming sloppy and insensitive to the use of our language. We have many members from many different backgrounds here, and I'm sure there are a lot of opinions on this subject. However, I for one wouldn't be at ease if I had to worry about using the word 'crap' in a room and getting a reprimand for it. Would you? -Ken This post was edited by Mookie on Apr 09 2005 11:48pm. |
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| Comments |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
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Quote: Would any JA member step up to a random guy IRL and say "stop swearing"? I asked my roommate at school not to swear early in the year, and after a bit of time and understanding, he stopped. I also asked him not to look at pron in the room, I don't think he ever intended to, but he hasn't. In fact, everyone in my dormitory is respectful enough not to curse in our room, and some not even in my presence. I respect that, because you don't hold double standards, then. However, I think you're one of very few to actually do that. |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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My two cents: I think the way your raised can change alot of your views on cursing and just about everything. I will admit I have said "crap" and "WTF" here at the JA, but I was very young and I have grown so much older. I know now that it's petty and immature if you can't come up with a better word in your brain. I don't think people should go around saying "crap" every two or five minutes but once or twice with a forty minute gap inbetween might be able to slide. On the other hand very serius curse words (I think you know what I mean) shouldn't be said at all,If it was said and I was JAK+ I'd have a talk with that person while they where silenced. Besides it's not very jedi like folk's,We all know we can think up a more productive word.  _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Apr 09 2005 09:03pm. |
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SaZ - Student 
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its sad that ppl swears so much. im not talkin about dumb retards but about young ppl. when i was like 8 years old i never dreamed about saying a bad word or somethin. few days ago in the bus i heard some 8-10 years old talkin to the girl : wanna s*** ? some says that the level of life is gettin better, ppl has more money and such but im starting to see that everyone will end up in total degradation. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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Quote: Which is why I didn't draw a conclusion in my first post, but asked a question. I see what you're saying. I have to say, that post was well written! |
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 - Student |
You know what? Swearing is bad! That's why it's fun! What bothers me is the standards of punishment. One dude might be like, "Dude, don't say that again!" while another might be like, "OMG BANT!11". It's silly.  Generally speaking though, I think everyone should turn their attentions to our staff being a bunch of wise-asses in situations that would get anybody else hung by their nuts, instead of something as trivial as vulgar language. But, that's just my opinion.  |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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Quote: Would any JA member step up to a random guy IRL and say "stop swearing"? I asked my roommate at school not to swear early in the year, and after a bit of time and understanding, he stopped. I also asked him not to look at pron in the room, I don't think he ever intended to, but he hasn't. In fact, everyone in my dormitory is respectful enough not to curse in our room, and some not even in my presence. Quote: There's also accountability on JA's part. Some 12 year old gets this game, joins the JA and see's some curse words and thinks it's cool. Next thing ya know his mom's wondering why he's cursin. "Sorry mom, JA members are rubbin off on me!" I think this instance is pretty true though, "you become who you're with." I began cursing in 3rd grade, not because my parents did, but because the kids at school did. The reason I request that people not to curse around me now is so that I don't start back up again (easily influenced maybe? Oh well, whatever keeps me straight). -- Quote: This is the internet. Wether you LIKE IT OR NOT, you (yes, YOU) have seen words and images FAR worse than "shit" and "crap". If hearing that word makes you sad, you should consider unplugging your network cable. ... It's about context, and sad as it is, context can not be defined. I guess you're right Aron, and perhaps oversensitivity is something that may describe me, though I am confident I don't speak out too much of the time, in RL or online. Lots of times when I'm on TS (JA or SWG) I'll just throw on the headphones so no one else in the house is bothered, and sometimes I'll just mute someone or sign off myself. I guess when it comes down to it, light cursing intended to create/emphasize humor is (or should be) cool with me, it's just the anger/intention to offend (ie. losing a duel) that bothers me. This comment was edited by SaberWeildinKow on Apr 09 2005 08:41pm. |
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SilkMonkey - Distributor of Cold Ones 
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Here's the deal guys. I know I don't really get bothered by swearing. And I have been known to swear in IRC or on the servers. Do I apologize about it? If someone is offended, I will. Otherwise...nope. I think context definitely is a major part of use in the language. I mean...calling a random JA member a f**kstick or something for no reason is uncalled for, and you deserve what ya get. But on the other hand, if I blow up a good lead during a duel, or I blow myself up with a rocket launcher during a gunfight...you better believe I'll express something...usually a 'shit' but I have dropped an f bomb before. Of course, if its someone who doesnt know what happened to make me say it...then I am the ultimate bad guy, out to subvert the dominant paradigm...or something. Good to see Aron posting on the matter. I <3 council responses. _______________ |-HK-47 -SilkMonkey: You are receiving a warning for being_too_sexy. If you do not stop, action will be taken against you.|| (11:13:43) � Virtue dances for Silk ||Smiling owner of Smilykrazy's 6000th comment =) ||Odan Wei's Proud Big Brother|| Janus is my official TaruTaru Cuddly Animal Type Person. ||(@Virtue) Or you could just be a man and set fire to your genitals.....you won't fall asleep for days after that.......trust me.||Thomas Skywalker er for sexy for sitt eget beste!!!!| Not changing sig until the JA loosens up. (Started: Aug 31, 2005) |
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Aron - Retired 
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Agreed. We should not think like "oh, every one swears, so we can do it just as well". We should set an EXAMPLE. A REALISTIC example, not one that requires us to do a triple check on every line we type. |
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Katan - Student 
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Aron summed it up for me pretty much Quote: I think anyone who uses the "excuse" that younger members use the academy, and bad language is not to be used for this reason, is either not of this planet, or dilusional. I disagree. Sure, these kids are gonna learn the words at some point, right? Personally, I'd rather not have them learn those words from us. They are gonna learn it at some point, but I'd rather have a clear conscience about it. Who are we to influence children? Now words like "damn" and "crap" and such.. I dont consider those swearing. Thats just me. Words like the F-word and sh!t get on my nerves, although I'll usually ask someone to not say sh!t just because I dont like seeing it, not nessecarily because of the rules.. _______________ This comment was edited by Katan on Apr 09 2005 07:47pm. |
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Aron - Retired
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HW, Aratan: no more of these posts in here, please. I won't say anything about right or wrongs, but this thread is going just fine; don't start a totally off-topic discussion between the two of you in here please. |
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Aron - Retired 
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We already have a swear filter; it is just not enabled. It's not about blocking out the bad words. It's about changing ATTITUDES. If we actually censor the words on the server, people will only tend to be more creative with their cussing, or simply use l33t speak. |
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NotSoLittleCaesar - Student 
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well, i know C1 has had hundreds of requests, but on this issue, a server clean fillter, blanking out the bad stuff like 'Shi*' nad the f word ect _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
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Hardwired - Retired 
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Quote: Would any JA member step up to a random guy IRL and say "stop swearing"? I know you are smarter than using such a weak example. Try again. - HW How is it weak? Why act any different here from what you'd do IRL? I thought *you* wanted it to stay civil. I did stay civil. What I mean by weak is the comparison of RL to an internet comunity. You know what? I give up. If you wanna be a pain since you no longer hold a rank. Fine...you go do that. I ain't doing the things I do for my health. And I do not explain myself to you. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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Yeah, you summed up my opinion as well, good post. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Nice post Aron, I completely agree. |
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Aron - Retired
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Good post Kenyon What the Academy will NOT do is make a "list" of the "forbidden words". However, I do think that there are some words that everyone knows are not appropriate in a community such as ours, with ages varying between 8 and, let's say... 50. The F-word, the C-word, etcetera. No question about it. However, like some of you have already pointed out, there are some other words that ARE questioned. Personally, I really don't get offended by "shit" or "crap". HOWEVER, what I do find an important factor is the amount of using it, and the occasion. I have seen staff members hopping on the servers, noticing a "shit" 10 seconds after they got in-game, and immediately saw this a chance to say something about "language". Now, in this particular case, it was someone who had been on the server for about an hour, playing peacefully, without saying a "bad word" ANY other time than that. However, if this person would have been saying it every 5 minutes, it would definately have gotten on my nerves. Talking "generally" in this way is, in my eyes, a form of disrespect. Even if you are not saying it directly to anyone. Just saying it where others can SEE it, is a form of disrespect, and sometimes even a provocation. Generally, besides the "no question" words, it comes down to the person saying it, the reason he says it, the context he says it in, the person he says it to and how often he uses such terms. Sadly, we just can't make any concrete rules for this. We can tell you that swearing is not allowed, and that you should keep in mind that the standards that seem "normal" to you, might seem totally different for others. On the other hand, we should also say that there is no place for "oversensitive" people (don't take that as a harsh comment). This is the internet. Wether you LIKE IT OR NOT, you (yes, YOU) have seen words and images FAR worse than "shit" and "crap". If hearing that word makes you sad, you should consider unplugging your network cable. Swearing is bad, but we are still on the internet here. We can't (read: should not) police around the servers, scanning for so-called "bad words". It's about context, and sad as it is, context can not be defined. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
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Quote: Would any JA member step up to a random guy IRL and say "stop swearing"? I know you are smarter than using such a weak example. Try again. - HW How is it weak? Why act any different here from what you'd do IRL? I thought *you* wanted it to stay civil. |
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Mookie - Ex-Student
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Quote: You should know I am generally with you, but this is not a black-and-white subject. There are plenty of grey areas to get lost in. Which is why I didn't draw a conclusion in my first post, but asked a question. I see what you're saying. |
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Hardwired - Retired
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Quote: Would any JA member step up to a random guy IRL and say "stop swearing"? I know you are smarter than using such a weak example. Try again. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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First of all, nice post. Tastefully done. Hopefully it will stay "nice and civil". Personally, I do not mind swearing at all as long as nobody gets hurt. However, I tend to get uneasy if it gets out of hand and people get targeted with insults. Especially on IRC, you have no way to know if the other guy is being serious or just messing around. I have seen huge flamewars break out in this manner over nothing. Things can get ugly fast. This is why the JA has a short leash on language, and I completely understand it. They try to keep everyone happy. Up until a while ago I thought getting kicked for saying "crap" was unacceptable. But think about it: the JA is completely private. They could ban you because they don't like your name if they felt like it. And trust me, nobody is going to ban you for saying "crap", or even something more vulgar once. And getting kicked out of the channel for a second is not the end of the world. Simply come back, apologize for potentially offending anyone, and move on. And most JAK+ won't care about "minor" vulgarities. I do understand, however, the occasional need to vent. I, too, sometimes feel the urge to blurt out obscenities to remain sane. And this is perfectly acceptable in the right channels. There are plenty of other channels/servers out there where you can freely do so without anyone giving you any grief about it. You say that the JA is supposed to be a relaxed environment. You are right. And you know very well what happens when things get out of control with language. People always get offended. The JA draws a firm line where most people will be happy. I tried writing a coherent post, but it came out more like a half-rant. You should know I am generally with you, but this is not a black-and-white subject. There are plenty of grey areas to get lost in. _______________ make install -not war |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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Quote: Good points indeed. Howerver, you have to remember that your old enough to know these points, and not make excuses to use the words just to use them. Younger people will do that just because they think it's "cool". Or beacause they just can. I completely agree. However, this post isn't directed at them: it's directed at the people who do understand the question. We're not talking about changing JA policy or anything, we're just taking a good look at what exactly is going on, right? |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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Good points indeed. Howerver, you have to remember that your old enough to know these points, and not make excuses to use the words just to use them. Younger people will do that just because they think it's "cool". Or beacause they just can. I curse in RL sure, I'm not saint. But curses are not every other word out of my mouth. Then why not curse here? People from the JA hale from all over the world. And have different beliefs. It's a simple matter of respect. I for one hate seeing someone curse just because it's easier than digging into their vocabulary and finding a decent word. There's also accountability on JA's part. Some 12 year old gets this game, joins the JA and see's some curse words and thinks it's cool. Next thing ya know his mom's wondering why he's cursin. "Sorry mom, JA members are rubbin off on me!" a bit far fetched to some but remember, I'm sure all of us werent raised the same. Some believe in spanking(me!) and some don't. some think "shit" is a bad curse word and I've met parents who think "crap" is just as bad. I'd have to side with JA's policy on this one. If someone thinks they need to curse to express themselves then they should pic a dictionary and expand they vobac.  _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Would any JA member step up to a random guy IRL and say "stop swearing"? |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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I can answer this here and now. And it will take me about 1 minute. And you already know the answer. What other forums, media or people use for a language standard has no effect here. We made our own policy. And where we draw the line? We trust completely in all of the JAK+ judgement. So they word is where the line is. Simple as that. Now I will be watching this thread carefully. We have seen several of these...and they rarely stay nice and civil. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Tigerclaw - Student 
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Mmmmm very good point! I must admit I have "heard" the word bastard mentioned a few times on the servers, and I DID tell the person that it isn't a very nice word to use. I feel I was correct in doing so, regardless of the context it was used. It has a definition in the English dictionary, and can be, I feel, offensive to some people. On the other hand, words like shit and crap aren't really offensive, even when said in anger. I often use the word crap to describe my saber skills, and I don't get any arguement The "f" word has no place in the academy at all, and neither do words that fall into the same category or FOUL language. I think anyone who uses the "excuse" that younger members use the academy, and bad language is not to be used for this reason, is either not of this planet, or dilusional. Teenagers are without a doubt the worst culprits of foul language in the UK. This is not opinion, it is fact. And one can only assume, although maybe one shouldn't, that it is the same the world over. So if youngsters use this bad language, why should anyone complain about it? I personally feel it's far more disrespectful for a younger person to use bad language towards an older person, than an older person using it towards a younger person. Maybe because I'm old When I was a teenager, I wouldn't dream of swearing at an adult, today it's common practice. How do I feel now? Couldn't care less. You can't stop it, so why worry about it? _______________ Geriatric single User, with a touch of Staff now and again. Influenced by Dash Starlight, Jaina. Janus, and Gradius in staff. And in yellow stance. Jaina D'Kana, who really helped me when I first joined the Academy and Jaiko D'Kana, who's classes I took in the begining. Proud owner of _Muro_'s 400th ACK! comment. Avatar by the one and only Majno . Padawan to Dash Starlight |
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