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Livia "Augusta_Mintaka" Drusilla
Student
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Maher - Jedi Knight 
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I have many times asked myself this question: are you playing with me all this time... ? Your satire between capitalism and communism is really confusing... May I say ?
But still you shall never break me down! If you do, could you re-assemble me back ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 28 2009 07:01am. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight 
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Quote: This was the first time you said "bull****" in our debate and it's incredibly offensive.
I could have chosen my words more polite way, but the outcome of that sentence just happened... Personally I have nothing against you... I deeply apologize you as my sentence obviously made you feel offended... When or more likely if you are going to accept this apology, could we move along and continue whereas our discussion left us ? This is frankliest apology what I could possible give, so don't underestimate how serious I'm at this given moment... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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So be it. :p _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Well I was refering to Deadly Sins as I really believe they can kill you, I never said them to be part of my morals 
And once again I don't see my world as black and white, which is good and which is evil...etc Quote: If you want to be a martyr then I present you a paradox. That means you want to leave behind your real loved ones for a spiritual cause, which is also greedy.
What if I just want to die ? What if I don't want to die, but I still give ? If answer is yes, you are greedy one both times, You have created an absolute truth... and absolute truth is impossible, when taking under notice the Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle... Quote: You can just go into the forest, gather food and distribute it to people who need food.
That's what I have been doing also, we have berries, fish in the lake, mushrooms... I once made a pretty good meal from ingredients which were taken from forest... But even better is to teach people to regonize correct berries and mushrooms and how to get big fish from the lake, vòila they aren't depended on you anymore... Quote: A baby likely doesn't have enough self awareness to help, but it does have many many needs to fulfill
When a human have enough awareness to help ? Quote: A six year old can pick up trash instead of play video games.
Nope he can't if nobody has taught him... Quote: If you believe my belief in greed being an instinct is wrong, you could have just respectfully disagreed. That is quite an offensive way to put it. That's like if I said you were a moron for your beliefs. This is what separates an argument from a debate. Mutual respect of stances and if you cannot come up with a reason to refute my claims, you can kindly withdraw and I will respect your decision. I don't respond to you to prove I am right, just to see if you have anything to say which might change my stance.
Irrelevant! I have allready said my opinion about you... My way of speaking shouldn't affect you personally, anymore... Anywhoo, if greed is a basic instinct why there isn't any scientical fact about it... ? What keeps you thinking that greed is a basic instinct anyway ? Who has taught this to you ? Or have you just figured it out by yourself ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 28 2009 01:30am. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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No I'm not saying that greed is good or evil... I'm saying that greed being a basic instinct or "it is an important factor of survival of humanity" is total bull**** 
I said let it be charity or giving stuff out(food, clothes..etc)! Even if you give stuff out directly to person who needs it... The whole principle is based on capitalism! It is most basic situation of supply and demand... and I want to do nothing with principles of capitalism ? I want to do more... I want to fix the situation, not just give my stuff out and except that ah those people will be fine, problem solved... Quote: The fact which you will refuse to be a martyr is greedy too.
But what if I want to be martyr ? Quote: Whatever reason you have for not donating all your spare time and capital will inevitability lead to greed.
How about when I'm a baby, I have lots of spare time, but I don't use it for helping people... Or how about 6-years-old who relizes that she can help but she doesn't have skill to help people... When I said "Note that I help when I can", I meant my skills to help... Yeah I can always give my time by looking the homeless which would be just stupid, but I bet It would be fun _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 27 2009 11:14pm. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: There is a way to devout all your money and resources which you do not need in an affective manner.
Nope there isn't such a way... Charity, Giving stuff out is capitalist's way to solve bad problems... Mine is more practicular and I don't try to buy good conscience with it...
EDIT: Note that I help when I can, but I'm not going to be some kind of martyr and kill myself for the sake of it... Because I bet that I'm more helpful for the evolution when I live and continue to do more... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 27 2009 09:00pm. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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huh why people are thinking that giving stuff out to people helps them the best way...
I could do it and give all my food for the beggar/homeless/poor human, but It would still bugger my mind that It helps just for few days... What if you can direct them to the places, where you know that people take care of them...? Church, Goverment Buildings... and I don't want to brag with my good deeds, but lets say I have helped some people to the degree, He/She could stand again with his/her own feet... I just devoted my time and friendly advice to the right place... Giving them stuff would have just made the situation worse...
Ofcourse I won't suggest this for everybody to do, because sometimes these humans can be rather dangerous and you need a correct way to approach them... EDIT: Quote: you make exactly the amount of money it takes for you to live to the penny. Is that what you imply?
Exactly... It is different when I'm having a job, I'm partying like animal with those moneys and share some with my friends too... Also I fill my needs for example upgrading my computer because in my work I need the best quality what I can get, buying new clothes; sometimes I buy myself clothes from flea market, depended highly from the situation... and overage money I put to the save just in case of bad day... However in my place there isn't stuff what I wouldn't need... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 27 2009 08:46pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: What does communism have to do with China, besides the fact China china merely claimed to be communist for years? Lots of people like using the argument that China isn't really communist, but state at the very same time that the USSR/NK/Cuba or whathaveyou was/is. It's called using selective evidence and is based on a double standard.
Not saying that this is what you did. Just saying :p _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on Nov 27 2009 08:11pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Quote: Is there something wrong with Communism? Ya' know, besides the fact that it doesn't work out in practice Don't tell him that in about ~30 years from now on, China's GDP is going to eclipse the US one.
 .
- Rin http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/tm/images/mao.jpg. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Rin... It works in small communities...
These people has cut out theirselves from the system, some are completely and some are partly... And well, we are just exchanging ideas with Amik in healthy manner, no personal offense has intented at any part... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Siren_Mintaka - Student 
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Is there something wrong with Communism? Ya' know, besides the fact that it doesn't work out in practice .
- Rin _______________ Former padawan of RoseRed, and cofounder of the Wii! Triumvirate! Quote: In the words of Old Ben, "Not as retarded or as stupid as a public, but an elegant community for a more civilized age." - Jedi_Pimp
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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eh for you the helping means, giving every penny away to charity or something like that ?
Like I said before I would rather help them more concrete way... More importantly, poor student will never have any extra money... I can barely buy food to myself...
Quote: Greed is universal
Slow down a bit I can assure you that It isn't universal... It might be a human instinct, but greed isn't universal for sure...
anyhow You are first person ever who are affirming me that greed is needed and a good thing... You can't even imagine how absurd this sounds to me... I haven't grown in enviroment where people are utterly selfish and greed, It is the opposite... whenever I go to place, where's people who I know... I can be sure that they will treat me well without thinking the money as how much they are going to spend on me... And yes I'm doing the same, even I have money that much I can barely buy food to myself... I have always survived somehow, but being greed It has nothing to do with my surviving... You should meet the people who I know and you would understand what I'm meaning... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 27 2009 02:22pm. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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No I didn't miss the point, because you were using greed in a concept whereas the foundation of story is allready set to support the system whereas the greed is working as value for the system.
Being greed in communism system is impossible, partly because they don't believe to this instinct, but because everybody has what they allready need. Everything what you are telling me about greed, how It is basic survival instinct and you witness this everytime on nature channel... Maybe, but you can't create just common truth from greed by just watching nature channel... I still argue that being greed is invidual trait which you can only learn from your enviroment... be it good or not, but It is not basic instinct... Because in my enviroment, my closest friends and family members, they aren't greed at all... Our lifestyle is totally different, allthought... To me greed is just something absurd, I have never felt it and I will never do... Simply because I allready have everything! My argument stays that greed as being an basic instinct has never been proved in sciencetical way, but oddly It supports Capitalism system so well... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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I waited you for about 20 minutes...!!! well ok ok... ugh lets do this old way then...
I have heard similar example before and the problem is you are inputting it to capitalism system... Charity is invention of capitalism... Such a word like charity shouldn't exists! It is like you can buy good feeling for yourself, oooh look at me I have helped those poor and hungry childs of africa.... God lord I hate Oprah for this very reason.... If you really want to help somebody/anybody, you need to go and life with them, work with them....etc In communism that human with cancer would have gotten best possible medical care... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 26 2009 10:19am. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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If you are in mood for real time debate, jump in
http://webchat.quakenet.org/ Channel: #HealthyDebate _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 26 2009 08:00am. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Lets talk about greed at first...
Greed, this is why I'm seeing it as evil thing... Once upon a time there was a guy in the high school, he thought that with best grades he will get access to best universities. He tried collect best grades from every course and exam whatever a teacher would just come up with. Years were rolling and yes indeed he got 10+++ from every course what he just took. He was admired by others and somebodies even started to get a bit jealous of him. Everything rolled just fine until the day of final exams. He decided to write them all; Mother Language English - Long Term Swedish - Long Term Psychics - Long Term Math - Long Term Chemistry - Long Term Philosophy - Short Term Psychology - Short Term Even teachers thought that this boy was greed and ambitious, They indeed saw it as a good thing, not just because there were so many subtances but also because he did have potential to get good results... Final Exams came and went, now to the guy's results... Mother Language - A English - A Swedish - A Math - A Psychics - A Chemistry - A Psychology - A Philosophy - B Because he didn't get A from everything... He didn't see any reason to live anymore, so he decided to hang himself... I'm atheist as far as you might be noticed
But I actually believe in seven sins of death... Wrath, Greed, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Pride, Sloth You really can die for those... My story was mix of Greed and Pride and that guy really died for it... That story btw is real and I'm sure it has been experienced in many places, not only in my school... Greed isn't heatlhy for anybody, period, you make other or yourself to suffer sooner or later... EDIT: I know Kant because my own mother and father has taught me exactly with these sentences... Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law... Act so that you always treat others as you want them to treat you... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 26 2009 07:53am. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Seriously I didn't know who Mills was... ? But now I know, thanks for enlightment... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 26 2009 07:05am. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Amik, I don't mean to offend you when I say you haven't read Marx or Engels theories... I think that you are a prudent invidual and when you come to explain me about what equality is in communism, It shows clearly that you simply haven't read Marx nor Engels theories... In communism everything is really based on circulation of economy even the equality...
Quote: Greed is what caused so many scientific, philosophical, medical and astronomical advances in society
Still greed has never acted major part on development of humanity... It is the opposite, It has slowed down it and partly destroyed the earth... Every major invention/theory, which had significantly affected to development of humanity, had created kudos to pure curiousity... Charles Darwin - Theory Of Evolution Albert Einstein - Theory of Relativity Stephen Hawkings - Theory of Black Holes Few to mention... and if you are starting the yadla yadla speech about how capitalism has affected to technology...etc Guess what, It could have improved even more IF there wasn't all those damned copyright laws... Kudos to competitive nature of capitalism whereas the greed value drives the capitalist; we have many factories producing almost the same product, which wastes our natural resources... Quote: Moving on, these communities you mention. I'm not sure what it has to do with today. We are becoming globalized at an accelerated rate, there will eventually be one community, mankind. We cannot run the world on a system of bartering like we would in a village.
Yes we can and we should, if It isn't going to happen, I'm going to build up my own community... Anywhoo I'm most bothered with; you are really saying that greed and jelousy are instincts when there isn't any sciencitical fact about it... My argument is rather; capitalism has specifically harnessed those words for good use to defend their theories... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Nov 26 2009 04:54am. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: Even small communities cannot practice real communism, but similar utopias where people aren't truly equal. Elders are seen as the wisest, the youth are seen as the work able and the women are seen as the care givers. This, although unavoidable, is still inequality. Thusly communism cannot exist.
You push too much the meaning of equality or inequality while the real question in communism is circulation of economy. I bet that you haven't read Karl Marx or Engels theories wherein both are giving huge meaning for circulation of economy. In their theories people should get equal rights in economy perspective. Nothing says that people should be same bold mass. Some kind of hierachy is always unavoidable and you need to earn your place at that hierachy; It isn't hard, if you just can love people openly and show them that they can trust you. Communism works in those communities. Yet each community were different kind and each community has built their own system for circulation of economy. One thing was common for these communities; money didn't exist, except in system and system's mention was to improve the community. But between people there wasn't money. Quote: Also, I'll add that the characteristics of humanity can evolve, but instincts are permanent as long as we still have a mind. Greed is a survival instinct, so are many of the other evils in the world. Also, hyper inflation has never completely ruined an economy, just slowed it down. People lose their instincts a long time ago. This is what I'm thinking. And greed is just a word which human has invented and nobody has ever scientically verified this as in animal society nor in human society nor in space. So it must be the invidual. _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: So, if you believe social economy to be superior to capitalism economy, then why doesn't it work? It's because humans are not compatible with it. Perhaps this will change, hopefully it will. I believe communism to be ideal in many areas, but it just will not work with the current state of mankind.
1# Communism has never been tried for real, on country/state level. - Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba, China neither of these examples haven't executed communism as right way. 2# Communism actually works in small communities. By small communities, I mean averagely from 50 to 10000 people. I have experienced and seen this with my very own eyes. Quote: Will capitalism doom us all? Maybe, but it will be due to the characteristics of humanity, not a faulty system based on said characteristics.
3# The Characteristics of humanity can evolve, but because capitalist pigs have been shouting too many times that humanity is weakness in system, people has actually started to believe in it. 4# All what I'm waiting for is the super inflation. _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Siren_Mintaka - Student
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I'm vinning, I'm vinning!
- Rin _______________ Former padawan of RoseRed, and cofounder of the Wii! Triumvirate! Quote: In the words of Old Ben, "Not as retarded or as stupid as a public, but an elegant community for a more civilized age." - Jedi_Pimp
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Kainz00r - Jedi Knight 
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Mayhaps. His Grace, King Kainz00r is on a shakey schedule however and may have to engage you in artful warfare on a later date - a lot of royal business along with an intolerably loud wench whom adors cuddles and abhors gaming continue to harass him longer than anticipated, hence he suggests a postponement.
His Grace proposes the beginning of this battle for sometime next week? Most of his royal duties should be attended to by then. Sincerely, a squire from King Kainz00r's own court. _______________ Fervent supporter of duelling - leave a message if you would like to battle! Married to Masta. |
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Siren_Mintaka - Student
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You're right. However, as you neglected to mention walking and all OTHER form of transportation... I choose to walk away!
- Rin _______________ Former padawan of RoseRed, and cofounder of the Wii! Triumvirate! Quote: In the words of Old Ben, "Not as retarded or as stupid as a public, but an elegant community for a more civilized age." - Jedi_Pimp
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Siren_Mintaka - Student 
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I told you not to call me on this wall! This is an unlisted wall!
- Rin _______________ Former padawan of RoseRed, and cofounder of the Wii! Triumvirate! Quote: In the words of Old Ben, "Not as retarded or as stupid as a public, but an elegant community for a more civilized age." - Jedi_Pimp
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Siren_Mintaka - Student
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That is NO such sign.
- Rin _______________ Former padawan of RoseRed, and cofounder of the Wii! Triumvirate! Quote: In the words of Old Ben, "Not as retarded or as stupid as a public, but an elegant community for a more civilized age." - Jedi_Pimp
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